At the risk of severely violating forum rule #3 I cannot go by without exposing this community to the fact that something has happened in Jenin in the last few weeks. This is way beyond my feelings and in perfect conscience of why there are forum rules I will take any punishment the moderator will understand is necessary to apply me, without any grudge against him.
As everyone knows Israel has stormed the refugee camp of Jenin in its military campaign agaisnt terrorism in Palestine. There is growing evidence pointing to a civilian massacre and several other war crimes to what A United Nations special envoy described the the devastation as quot;horrific beyond beliefquot;.
(source BBC News): hi/english/wor...00/1937048.stm
Now, in my opinion this is nothing but state sponsored TERRORISM at the highest level and will in no way help in bringing peace to the Piddle East.
It is also my opinion that most of the people here in Europe will agree to this.
I think there are a lot of American based forum users here. What I would like to have is someone explaining me why is the US voting against (and in this way vetoing) an investigation of the facts by the United Nations.
Doesn't the truth have any value? Don't we care about war crimes? Is there a diference between terrorism and war crimes? Or the issue is just money, since the US is the world's largest arm suplier and Israel the world's largest arm consumer?
extremely off topic for this board, however, i feel my response as an israeli is necessary. i join duratix by willing to face the consequences regarding the forum rules.dear duratix,
i live in israel, and i think a UN investigation will be most welcome (imo only).
i do not protect my goverment's behaviour, and i didn't vote for it. but u must understand we (israelies) have been suffering during the last few months from an extremely large scale terorist acts specifically targeted against civilians. we had hundreds of killed men, women and children from terorist attacks in jerusalem, tel-aviv, haifa any many other places.
i don't think staying in jenin/gaza or other palestinian areas (including the ocupied teritories in which there are israelies sattelers) is a smart move by israel. and i don't like that civilians (or 'even' soldiers) get killed, both for the israelies and for the palestinians. both sides suffered havy casualties.
don't forget that not long ago, PM Barak has offered an unprecidental 'deal' to MR Arafat, returning 97% of occupied teritories, and forming a palestinian state. he even got most of the israeli people supporting him. but MR arafat just wouldn't take it, he literally ran away from camp-david, and shortly after started his 'holy-war'.
i do read/hear other news sources than israeli media, like cnn/nbc/bbc etc, i do think however that the palestinians have a great 'marketting' and propaganda programs. a field in which we've obviously lost: the media wars.
i would like to summary: i think an unbiased investigation is most welcome. in a war, like in a war, no one is innocent and no one is winning, but at least more details will get public, and the information will be more reliable. i condemn any killings, from both sides, and support a palestinian nation and country, and taking the jewish sattelers out of the occupied teritories (all of my friends think the same, and large portion of israel civillians and military personnel as well). but please keep in mind that: 1st: it's a media war, and 2nd: the terrorist acts we've been sufferring from (20-30 ppl killed EVERY WEEK during the last 3-4 weeks before this jenin stuff) are unacceptable by any standards and some actions should have been taken.
best regards
Avi Halachmi.
It gave me back some faith reading your dialogue on this. While this really isn't the forum to discuss such topics (I'm violating that forum rule, too, right now, sorry), it is just natural that we all look for re-assurance in our peer-groups.
And I think, I've just found it. I, too, believe that a UN-engagement is neccessary whenever a majority of the international community finds that two participants in a conflict aren't capable of finding a solution by themselves and there are civilian casualties. I believe most Europeans have understanding for both sides in this conflict. And as the current US-government isn't willing to do much here, I'd call for a European-sponsored UN-mission that watches over civilians and a European effort at peace-negotiations.
Terrorism and the response to terrorism really are one of the most critical issues today. A state's answer to terrorism very easily yields as much grief and injustice as terrorism itself on to the point where both get undistinguishable. Or why do you think the US haven't signed the treaty for an International Law Court? I guess the best solution is to incorporate 'neutral' (UN) participants in the resolution of such conflicts.
The solution will start only when both Barak [of course not Barak, but Ariel Sharon, the Ex-General of doubtable reputation. Sorry if I confused anyone, I guess it slipped because I was reading of Barak in the post above] and Arafat stop to act to a (home and international) audience and making symbolic politics to project themselves as victims, but start to make offers that accept the opponents problems and suffering, too.
Teegedeck: i agree.
just a small correction. Mr Barak was the prime minister before the current one (Ariel Sharon). Mr barak also pulled all of the israeli forces from lebanon. the israelies were in south lebanon since 1982, in response to rockets launched from there to the north of israel and hizbulla attackes from that border. Mr Sharon (current PM) was the initiator of the lebanon operation, while he was the minister of defence in '82.
@Teegedeck:
When you say Barak, you'll probably mean Sharon.
(Edit) avih beat me up
@avih:i think an unbiased investigation is most welcome. in a war, like in a war, no one is innocent and no one is winning
In this war I do totally agree with you, but the problem here is that innocent people do get caught and killed. ON BOTH SIDES!!!i do think however that the palestinians have a great 'marketting' and propaganda programs
Well I seriously doubt about that, I just think the Israeli Govenment just doesn't care about it, why should they? They are completely in control. They couldn't care less about the UN, let alone the media war. It's the way they think, you see?
Anyhow, there is no way you can say that the declarations of the UN special envoy are palestinian propaganda.
Still the issue remains, why - if everyone is in favour of a UN investigation as I think most people are - is the US Government voting against it? I just think they are washing each others's hands, that's all...
If Goverments which should go by International Laws get away with this (yet to be proved) kind of crimes, (such as the Indonesians have done with the Timoreese, the Iraqis with the Curds, Serbs with the Albanian Kosovars, etc) then there is never going to be a stop to this.
Suharto was on trial, Milosevic is on trial, Sadam should be on trial and so can be Sharon should the investigation go forward.
Anyone who read Victor Ostrovsky's quot;Way of Deceptionquot; knows how deeply involved the Israeli PM must be in this kind of matters.
One has to raise a voice...
duartix, i just sent u a PM.
i can say for a fact, knowing the israeli mentality and way of thinking, and beeing one, that targetting palestinian civillians is a big NO-NO. the way people think, AND the way it's expressed in the israeli media condems targetting civillians. the aim is only to stop these suicide terrorists. (of course there are the extremests that might not think this way, but i'm sure the vast majourity condemn hurting civillians)
i'm not in a position to actually know the military orders, but i do most honestly believe that every effort is made to avoid killing civillians. i wouldn't keep living here if i had the slightest suspect that our government is deliberately killing civillians, even more about a massacre. trust me on this, and i DON'T close my eyes or 'look to another direction'.
i stress my next words are not known for a fact, just as a strong 'hunch'.
i doubt very much this can be said about Mr arafat and the palestinians (about not killing civillians, and the palestinian media). unfortunately, jenin has been made a 'nest' for terrorism. it has become a jiant HQ for terrorism, including so many 'factories' for weponary and bombs.
they do use civillians as human shields (even small kids), keeping miletary arsenal in civil homes and buildings.
it's very hard fighting terrorists among civil population without hurting civillians. but unfortunately, they do use use this fact, and just hide among civillians.
and regarding the media wars and your remark that israel don't give a damn about global media, since we're in control and winning. that could be true, i can't tell, but it emphesizes even more the fact that this media war is unbalanced (btw, i don't think the government don't care about global media, it's just that the pictures and press from their side is getting a lot of (rightfull) attention).
think about it, the palestinians themselves probably can't win by military operations alone, it's quite obvious our military is able to cause much havoc for them. so the only way they can fight, is using the media. and they do it. and win. this is a global era, and the media plays a majour part in any war.
avi.
Please avih, note that I'm not targeting the Israeli Government's motivations nor the motivations of your country's politics on defense, neither am I defending MR Arafat. I could be targeting the means they've used to implement their politics, but that so are you. I'm sure Israel trials every terrorist they catch, so, if the military have commited war crimes (I'm not saying they did) then they MUST be held responsible!
What I just don't understand is the US Goverment trying to cover up for the Israeli Government. Were there war crimes? Let the UN investigate! That's my point!!!
I'm off for the weekend.
Bye.
gt;quot;I'm sure Israel trials every terrorist they catchquot;
unfortunately, i can't be as sure as you about this fact. at least during these times of fighting. if someone fires at you, u fire back. not trying to catch him alive by all means.
i do think however that this fact should be true as a general rule.
and as my 1st line of response was, i would also like to see an unbiased investigation commitie. to expose both their actions and ours.
and i can't say anything about US intentions by not voting for such a commitie. that's their business.
but u know, i think the saddest (although neccesary) consequence of these unfortunate times is that they have lost our trust. left wing ppl in israel BELIEVED the palestinians and MR arafat truely wanted peace. these days i don't think anyone believes anymore of his pure intention for peace. still yet the left wing ppl (including myself) do support complete separation and an independant palestinian state. we just don't beleive their intentions anymore.
it's about fucken time we'll stop fighting like kids and sit and negotiate. god, that would make SO many people happy.
peace.
avi.
i would like to offer my sympathies first of all to the forum members that are personally affected by this situation and hope that your countries and others can come to a peaceful resolution so there is no need for threads like this .
these links contain analyses about the israel/palestinine situation that people may find interesting reading:
terrorterrorism.htm
@all Please don't be spoonfed the lies of the [ Western ] mass media - they're sources of infomation are the Pentagon/Whitehouse: do you think you are being told the truth ?
What I would like to have is someone explaining me why is the US voting against ( and in this way vetoing ) an investigation of the facts by the United Nations.
Doesn't the truth have any value? Don't we care about war crimes? Is there a diference between terrorism and war crimes? Or the issue is just money, since the US is the world's largest arm suplier and Israel the world's largest arm consumer? |
Post at 2011-4-15 16:09
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